Real Talk: Generations and DE&I
Welcome to Real Talk with Loeb Leadership, a safe-space webinar discussion series as part of our dedication to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. In this series, we gather a panel of executive coaches, leadership development and workplace culture experts, and DE&I specialists to discuss current, relevant, and often challenging topics related to DE&I in law firms and corporate environments.
For the first time in history, there are five generations represented in the workplace. Generational issues in the context of diversity, equity, and inclusion are a complex topic that involves different perspectives and experiences from individuals from various generations. An important issue within this topic is the perception and approach towards DE&I, where older generations may have had less exposure to the topic, while younger generations tend to be more familiar with it. This can lead to conflicts and misunderstandings in the workplace, particularly when it comes to issues such as inclusion, equity, and unconscious bias. Younger employees may feel frustrated with the slow pace of change, while older employees may feel defensive or resistant to change.
Hello, everyone, and welcome.
[David Sarnoff]: Thank you so much for joining Loeb Leadership's Real Talk session. Today, we are joined by Dr. Fritz Galette, Joy Stephens, and Tamara Fox. And thank you to Lindsay Millan for all her help in organizing and producing this webinar, getting us to this point. For those of you who are joining us for the first time, Loeb Leadership is a certified woman-owned business that is a management and leadership training and development company. We thank all our loyal followers who show up for our Real Talk sessions. As always, we want this to be engaging and interactive. So please utilize the chat to just send questions, comments, reactions. We greatly appreciate hearing from the audience.
As you know, this session today is about diversity, equity, and inclusion and generations. And some challenges and solutions and successes. We're going to talk about that. What we're hearing from a lot of our clients, I'd say over the past six months, is that generational issues are more and more becoming top of mind as to the challenges they're facing. And they want solutions and programming and coaching around that. We just thought it was a timely topic to address here. So just to start things off, I'll throw it out to the panel,
what are some of the key differences across generations that you see arise in the workplace? Who would like to start us off?
Joy Stephens:
I'll start us off with one of the most obvious ones is communication style. Simply, just the ways to communicate that are available to everyone now. We're not always there, depending on the generation with which you entered the workforce. I think that has led to a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of bias. And I would say that along with reality. Reality is different for different people in different generations. The way I grew up, I thought it was normal because that's how I grew up and no one told me different. Everybody is that way. And so if you grew up in ... Let's say my father was born in 1936. He grew up in the '40s. So his reality is completely different from mine. However, people that would be my father's peer are still in the workforce. And so what they think of as normal, as acceptable, as equitable is different from someone who was born in 1999.
David Sarnoff:
Well, thank you so much for sharing that, Joy. You raised a lot of great points. I think it's important to just state upfront for the first time in the history of planet Earth, there's five generations in the workplace. And Gen Z entering into the ranks over the past few years. Like you said, all the generations have their preferences for communication, technology, giving and receiving feedback. But also, bringing their lived experience of how they see the world. When I was a litigation associate in the early 1990s, even if there was a partner who was 20 years older than me or 30 years older, we had similar upbringings. We grew up before the internet, before cell phones, before cable TV. So there were a lot of shared experiences. However, a junior associate today compared to a partner who's 20 or 30 years older, they had vastly different lived experiences growing up. And certainly technology being one of the big distinguishing factors. But Tamara, as the millennial on the panel, where do you see these differences?
Tamara Fox:
Yeah, thanks, DB. Appreciate it. So one huge thing that I think is very prominent for millennials and Gen Z especially is bringing that whole person to work. I know previous generations, there was expectations of you leave your home self at the door. That no longer is a thing anymore in today's society and how our businesses should be operating. Unfortunately, there are some businesses that are. But the reality is if somebody experienced something in their personal life, it is going to impact their professional life and vice versa. And Gen Z and millennials are expecting that.
"Hey, I had a trauma happen in my life. I need to be able to talk to somebody about it. So that I can come to work and still be my best self or still be successful, show success for clients." And not, "I can't talk about what's going on." I think it was more hush-hush with personal in previous years. And Gen Z and millennial are going to continue to challenge that, continue to talk about truly what happened. What happened? What's going on? How can we change that and make that differently so you can show up differently in the workplace?
David Sarnoff:
Dr. Fritz, through your lens, how do you respond to what Tamara and Joy have said?
Dr. Fritz Galette:
As somebody born and raised in the 1960s and raised throughout the 1970s and had my first experiences in the workplace in the 1980s, I'm now showing my age in the salt and pepper. I can tell you that we are a much more psychologically minded population than we were before. We have terms like emotional intelligence and a lot of other terms that we have brought into the workplace and workspace that you wouldn't have thought of bringing up in the workplace in the 1980s, especially in the 1990s. But now we have a population of five generations that were brought up with these concepts. And expect these concepts to be understood and to be implemented by managers and leaders. So I've seen a huge, huge change. In the 1990s if I walked into a space, I didn't tell them I was a clinical psychologist. I told them I had some training in organizational something. Something to make them not afraid of me as a mental health provider. But now in this day and age, with the population's understanding of how trauma affects us, the history of what's going on there, how it's all delivered through the social media re-traumatizing us vicariously on a regular basis. It's not uncommon for me to walk in and say, "Hi, I'm a clinical psychologist. I know y'all need help. I'm here to help." And that's a very big difference.
David Sarnoff:
Thank you so much for sharing that, Fritz. So if we can just build off of what everybody has said about ... We've talked about some of the differences across generations. Now if we could weave in diversity, equity, and inclusion among generations. Because we do hear some interesting feedback and stories about how the different generations ... And while I'm reluctant to generalize, there is research to support a lot of this and as well as anecdotal observations ... how different generations approach inclusion, equity. Where one generation may feel offended or insulted by a comment where another generation might say, "Well, why are you getting upset? What's the big deal?" Go ahead, Joy. Deep breath.
Joy Stephens:
So much to talk about here. So the first thing I want to say is when it comes to one of the other generational differences is that there's this idea of ... especially with respect to the previous generations ... of, "We just had to suck it up. So we just sucked it up and we dealt with it. And we soldiered on and we kept quiet and we were stoic. And all these other things that said I didn't deal with my pain." And we wear that, "I didn't deal with my pain," as a badge of honor. Now you have millennials, to some extent Gen Z, even more Gen Alpha, even more, saying, "I'm going to tell you how I'm being hurt and expect you to understand that I don't want to be hurt anymore." One of the things that I've challenged some of the older generations overall is, didn't you also not want to be hurt? Regardless of the fact that you sucked it up and you soldiered on and you were so stoic, don't you wish you hadn't been hurt in the first place?
And why are we sometimes trying to perpetuate that cycle of abuse with the younger generations just because we went through it? If someone was getting beat with a bat, we wouldn't expect, "Well, I got beat with a bat. So I think the next generation should get ... " Although spanking is a whole thing. But this idea of continuing the trauma because that's just the way it's always been has to stop as well. Now, if you overlay that with being a member of a marginalized community, whether it's being a woman or female-presenting, whether it is race or religion or geography or ability, et cetera. Again, some of the younger generations are like, "This is me. This is who I am, this is what I represent. And I need you to accept that along with the fact that I have a therapist. Along with the fact that I talk about my feelings and I don't want to be hurt, et cetera, I want where I work to be comfortable for me."
And some of the older generations are like, "I didn't have that and I don't see why you should have it either." Because that requires some of the older generations to make it comfortable, which requires work and energy. And sometimes vulnerability that they have spent 30, 40, 50, 60 years denying. Even within a particular demographic ... Let's take myself, I'm an African American woman. I have had older African American people tell me certain things that for their reality and for their generation was absolutely true. "Don't say this. Don't get caught doing that. You got to work twice as hard to get half as much." All these things that we heard growing up, I would be doing a disservice to a Gen Z, African American woman if I continued to say that's the best we can do. As a woman, I've been told, "A lady doesn't do this and you should do this. And don't be too much of this and maybe know your place," et cetera.
As a woman, I should not be perpetuating the maintenance of those stereotypes to the next generation. But sometimes it's done in an effort to protect. I know that I have had people try to protect me in that way. And I've sometimes, before I started doing what I do now, tried to protect other people by telling them, "Go where angels fear to tread. And don't do this because it'll get you in trouble. Don't do that because they won't accept you." Never stopping to think, "Why not? Why do that?" More and more, the younger generations are saying, "Why do I not have the ability or the agency or the freedom to do this thing? Just because you say so?" And that can be disconcerting to people that have dealt with it for 40 or 50 years. I'm monopolizing the conversation.
David Sarnoff:
No worries. No worries. Tamara, would you like to weigh in on this topic?
Tamara Fox:
Well, I was a little listening to Joy, because she could have carried on. That was amazing, Joy. Thank you. I think to just add on to what Joy said from that perspective of having to say who you are, I know at least, when I'm speaking for myself, I've always been very transparent about, "This is who I am. This is what I'm dealing with. These are my experiences." Because otherwise I can't work. I can't just pretend that everything is okay. But again, I'm a millennial. So I entered a workforce in a time where people were beginning to do that. I think I might have done it before it was very common. But managers now, I think one of the biggest thing, regardless of the generation the manager is, is managers need to know what to do when somebody approaches them with that conversation.
Because often managers will look at them and be like, "Okay? Sorry?" They don't know what to say. So I think one of the biggest things I've seen with clients is helping managers and leaders and all individuals understand how to be a leader, how to show up differently. And not cater or customize to the individual you're working with, but have that inclusive lens of, "You are different than the person I just talked to 20 minutes ago. So how do I actually listen to what you're saying, listen to who you are as a person regardless of your generation, regardless of your gender, regardless of your ethnicity? And how do I actually listen to you and then give you a response? Not just some formulated regurgitated thing in my head that I want to say before you're done talking. But how do I actually give you a response that's what you need?"
That I think is where that inclusiveness comes in is we focus on the person and truly what they're saying. And having true authentic conversations with them that require vulnerability than just being prepared to answer them before they're done talking. That takes courage, that takes vulnerability and that often takes training. I mean, a lot of people don't know or haven't been taught ... I'm not a psychologist, so we're all not Fritz in the essence of we're trained on how ... So that takes a lot of training, a lot of thought, and a lot of uncomfortability to get there.
David Sarnoff:
Well, the good news is we have a psychologist here to help us. So that would be helpful. But thanks for sharing that. And Fritz, you could weigh in. I'd also like to just throw out the question, then we'll get to a question from the audience. When there is a bias event across generations, how would you guide or counsel a manager or leader to approach that to find some common understanding or at least a mutual respect?
Dr. Fritz Galette:
Okay. Hold that question, panel, because that's an important question for us to get to. But we also want to put ourselves present day 2023 in context. Where we are today is a culmination of everything that came before. All of us have life experiences, histories, traumas that brought us to where we are today. Our Generation Alpha, they are our young children. They are the products of the prior generations. So a lot of the things that we feel fit to complain about about the younger generations, we did that. We raised these people. We raised them. I'm reflecting for me on 1970s Fritz. Imagine me at five or six years old walking to school. That's what we were able to do back then in 1970s. In Brooklyn, I was able to walk to school on my own. But I can tell you from being in New York, things happened in New York that made all parents start to become afraid over the next generations to let their kids walk through the streets. We started to pay more attention.
It's 10:00. Do you know where your children are? We did so much to make sure that our kids are okay. I was at dinner yesterday with my two sons, 18 and 20. And I said to them, "Either one of you, are you worried that if you don't make it in school, you don't make it in life, you going to be homeless?" And both of them laughed like, "No. No, I'm not worried about that." I was worried about that. I was brought up in a time where if you didn't do what you had to do to be okay, you were not going to make it.
So was I fearless about being unapologetically who I was in 1970s and 1980? No, I had to survive. Because in New York, if I walked into the wrong neighborhood, I could be killed. Literally killed for walking into the wrong neighborhood. So we are in generations now where that still could happen. Very much so we see it brought to us in the media, in the news. But the older folk here are responsible for what we're dealing with, we're experiencing in our millennials who feel safe enough to be unapologetically who we are. And that's the way we raise them.
Joy Stephens:
I also want to translate what you just said into a workspace. The survival piece of it. Before I think about some of the things that I was told back in the '90s when I entered the workforce, "Make sure you do this. Don't do that. Don't let them see you doing these things. Hide who you are." That was a survival tactic for the generation that came before me. And they were telling me these things, again, in order to protect me. But that's all they knew. And as we learned more about, to your point, emotional intelligence, psychological safety, inclusion overall ... Even learning more about the brain, we've been studying the human body for thousands of years. We've been studying the human brain for, what? 200 maybe 300 years. Aside from jabbing things in our skull and just moving it around, really understanding the psychology of things. That is relatively new and it's still very scary to a lot of people.
The stigma associated with mental health overall. Even saying mental health still feels different from physical health. If I tell someone I have diabetes, then they're going to say, "Oh, okay. We know you're taking this or you're taking that. Oh, my husband has diabetes," blah blah, blah. We have a whole discussion. We go on about our day. If I tell someone I have depression, they don't know what to do, how to react, what to say. It's very awkward. Maybe I shouldn't talk about that at work. All these things. It's a completely different reaction to two illnesses.
So from a survival standpoint, covering who you were was a way to survive in an environment that was relatively hostile. And now as we are inviting the younger generations into the workplace, the hostile work environment is no longer acceptable. And I think that's probably the biggest and best change is saying, let's make the environment conducive to being yourself instead of telling people, "Don't do that."
Dr. Fritz Galette:
We taught our young to have a much higher bar when it comes to how they're being treated. Oops. Look what we did.
Joy Stephens:
We taught them that. That's the funny thing to me. The same people from an age standpoint who are the older Gen X, because I'm 49. And so Gen X I think goes up to maybe 55 or something right now. I could be a little bit wrong about the numbers. I hear that generation saying, "These kids today." And I want to say, "You mean your kids? Because you raised these kids." So you got what you got. Because separating personal life from professional, somewhere along the line we started telling our children, "It's okay to do this." We raised them differently. We gave them empathy. We gave them the desire to be their complete selves. We taught them how to talk about and deal with their emotions. And then we somehow are surprised when they show up at work doing it.
Tamara Fox:
Exactly to Fritz and Joy's point, just because millennials and Gen Zers are doing it differently, is that that resistance? Is that the, "It's different. We're not used to this. It's foreign. We're concerned because we've never operated this way. We don't know how to deal with this." Because it's changed. Change is hard, change is different, but it's also something that they've never dealt with before. So just because millennials ... I've seen this shift a lot with companies and businesses and firms that I've worked with over probably the last three to five years. I think COVID had a very drastic impact on this. But just because it's different and unique doesn't mean it's wrong.
So I feel that when I first started to see managers coming to me and leaders coming to me with, "My employee's telling me they have anxiety," or, "My employees telling me about this thing that happened with them and their wife over the weekend. And I don't know what to do about it." That has now shifted to, "Help me understand how I can help this person or how I can support this person." Because now leaders and firms and organizations are seeing that that's not going to go away. And it's not wrong that they're doing that. You can actually set somebody up for better success by knowing what's going on in their life, knowing what's happening outside of work as well.
David Sarnoff:
Right. Just to add to the conversation about the way people were raised and hostile work environments and psychological safety. Gen Z is the first generation ever to have active-shooter drills every year of their education since preschool. Multiple times a year, curl up in a ball, put the blinds down, shut the lights don't talk, you can get shot. And it's traumatizing. We see this with some of our clients. Workplace safety means something completely different in general to Gen Z than it does to a baby boomer who may not have experienced that. But I do want to go back to that question about when there is bias across generations and somebody comes to that manager or leader that Tamara describes, what should they do?
Tamara Fox:
So to me, it's back to looking at the whole person and back to focusing on the individual. Because it doesn't matter that Joy and I are different generations. We're both different people and we both have different needs. So understanding, okay, yes, you may have a millennial and a Gen Xer who are in conflict. But that doesn't necessarily mean that everything true about a millennial and everything true about a Gen Xer is true for those two individuals. So it's going back to who are the two people in front of you and what is the conflict? What is the issue? And what are you trying to solve? Yes, you can relate to some of the things or understand some of the things that generations prefer when trying to get to a conflict resolution. But you still have to talk to each of those individuals. You can't just say, "Oh, you're a Gen X or so you won't have a conversation face to face. And the millennial wants to send you text messages." You can't just assume.
You need to sit the two people down or talk to them individually. And say, "Okay, what's going on? What do you need? How can I help?" One of the things I always tell managers and have told managers for years is, "Use what and how questions. Ask questions. Don't just jump to conclusion on the assumption or what to do. And help the person understand too, that person's different." Again, to me, generation aside, even if they were the same generation, you want to approach it with, how do we help these two individuals get what they need?
Joy Stephens:
I just wanted to just follow up on a couple of the comments that we've gotten so far. So in reference to something I mentioned earlier about some of the lack of understanding that happened in some of the earlier generations, I think I may have said, I didn't get that. And Elena was like, "Don't you wish it was available. Is that a more appropriate way to say it?" Absolutely. I wish that I had had some of the tools, resources, freedom to say and think things out loud that I see with some of the younger generations. Now it is on me to not be jealous that they are asking for that. And resent the fact that I didn't ask for it or even though it was possible. And was it possible? I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think generationally and from a societal standpoint, we were ready for that in the '90s when I joined the workforce.
But now as we are learning more, when you know better, you do better. And so we are doing better overall. So absolutely, I wish it was available. And I don't begrudge the younger generations for asking for it. There's another thing in here about mental health. Melinda Thompson ... Hi. "Mental health is also very cultural. And there are some cultures that are not as accepting as others." This is also very true. Again, being an African American woman, I remember growing up hearing that going to a psychologist or a psychiatrist was for other people and not for us. There was different ways that was said that I will not say today. But that was for other folks. I needed to just suck it up and just move on. And there was nothing wrong with me.
Sometimes there was, "Just pray about it and it'll be okay," or, "Nobody wants to hear what you got to say." Even nowadays, I hear people say that, "How are you doing?" "Oh, can't complain. Nobody's listening anyway." That's a rejoinder to that question that we throw out. But we don't think about what that really means when we say it. "Hey, how you doing?" "Oh, I can't complain. Nobody's listening anyway." What are you really saying when you say that as a joke? You're saying, "I want someone to listen to me and there's nobody here." And we laugh about it. So the words are very powerful. And the way that you talk about certain things absolutely informs how you behave in certain situations. I really do feel like I'm going on too long. I'm so very, very passionate about this.
David Sarnoff:
We appreciate your passion, Joy. And just by you raising that question. Because I've heard Dr. Fritz over the years and have come to appreciate and realize through his teachings that just saying, "How are you," is an incredibly powerful question.
Dr. Fritz Galette:
Yeah, I love talking about that question because it's not just the question to get a checkbox answer, "I'm okay." But when you ask that question there's a willingness on your part and an intention, a motivation on your part to really listen for the answer. It is such a powerful experience to have someone hold space for you. You to be a therapist. You don't need to give them a 50-minute hour. But when somebody ... you just asked them, "How's it going? What's what's coming up for you?" And they feel your motivation, your intention to listen to that answer, that can make their day. And that can be less than 60 seconds. But if you ask that question and you had no interest in the answer, they can also feel that.
Leaders, managers, your most important asset are the people. And we know better now, because I've been in spaces since the '90s. We know a lot better now about managing those people from a place of care, from a real place of genuine care. And the more we do that, the more we can become transformational leaders who don't have to do a whole lot more. Leaders sometimes you're thinking we're trying to add work to your space there. But quite often I'm advocating very shortcut kind of ways of really making an impact.
When an employee feels like you care about them, there's a whole lot of outcomes that the research will tell you are going to be in your favor, going to be more motivated. The burnout is going to be less. The motivation to get the work done is going to be more. So when you ask a question about a specific situation about bias, yes, the psychologist to me comes out and wants to give you history. Because everyone's got history and context.
But if every day you are just chipping away at a little piece of it and you're developing your relationships and your connections with your people, when a conflict arises and you say to them something quite simple, "Hey, how can I best support you?" And they feel that, you may be able to help diffuse and resolve conflicts or at least help people work through. The piece of it as managers and leaders, we have to work not to take care of our people like we're there to rescue them. But to connect them to their resources inside them.
David Sarnoff:
Yeah, Fritz, when you bring up care ... I coach managers, directors, leaders around leading with care and empathy. I go back to the old quote, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." When it's authentic and genuine and when people believe you're coming from a spirit of care ... And you could still be incredibly direct and it still may be uncomfortable for them to hear it. It may sting, but they're more likely to receive it gracefully when they believe you're doing it in their best interest than if it's coming across as punitive or hostile.
Joy Stephens:
I'm going to change the subject literally. One of the things that I also wanted to talk about is the use and the request for feedback that you see in millennial, Gen Z, Gen Alpha. And we agree Gen Alpha are children, but they are 12 and 13 years old. They are 10 years from being in the workforce, if that. But this idea of feedback. So it's one of the things, when people have seminars and workshops about how do you manage the younger generations, this discussion of they like feedback comes up a lot. And going back to what Fritz said around, "We raised these kids." So if you think about what happened in previous generations where you worked a job your whole life. And you retire and your pension is gone. Or again, going to what someone's reality is. We've seen more and more banks fail, massive businesses failed, the auto industry had to get rescued, pensions have gone, or retirement funds have gone belly up fraud, et cetera, et cetera.
So this idea of financial security is also not there, which means that sometimes companies will have employees that have been loyal for 10, 12, 15 years that is just, "Sorry, we had to let you go." And when it comes to promotions and advancement, et cetera, you can do your job every day. And then in three years' time, "Well, you're not ready. You have these gaps, these other things that I didn't tell you about as your manager. Because I haven't been giving you really good feedback," et cetera. My generation, Gen X, we very much recognized that and started to demand it. "On an annual basis, I want to have a performance review. I want you to tell me what I'm doing so that I can move on. If I do these things and I meet this threshold, will I get the reward that I feel I deserve?"
Now a generation and a half, two generations later, I want constant feedback. "Tell me how I'm doing today. Tell me how I'm doing this month. I want to meet with you on a biweekly basis so we can discuss my progress." So that it isn't this shocker sometimes in December when everyone is doing performance reviews. And all you get is, "Keep doing what you're doing," or, "You got these gaps." I want to know in the moment so I can talk about it in real time. I think that also is one of the improvements that I'm seeing with some of the younger generations is requesting, demanding. And wanting to understand what process does your firm, your company, your school, whatever it is. What process do they have in place to offer that feedback on an ongoing basis?
I hear people say, "These kids, they are soft," and blah, blah, blah. Absolutely not true. To your point about the active-shooter drills, their resilience may look different. But they are absolutely strong of mind. Now, them talking about what's wrong, what's wrong in your world or talking about something you're struggling with does not make you weak. Being able to talk about it is how you heal from it, which makes you stronger in the long run. And that's something else I want people to start to understand about some of the younger generations. Just because they express things differently does not mean that they are in any way less capable of doing the things that were done before. I just wanted to say that.
Tamara Fox:
Yeah, I'd love to add to Joy's comment about feedback. One comment I've shared with managers and leaders as we've been talking about feedback, because I've implemented more feedback processes and performance processes than I cared count, is look at what's happening in society when it comes to what people are asking for. So millennials and Gen Z, we have social media at our fingertips. I mean, I remember when I was, I don't even know what age. That was when MySpace and the internet started, AIM. So you had that constant, quick, easy communication. And that is now translated into what we're asking for in the workplace. When we were children, a lot of us were teenagers, we were getting constant, quick communication. We are getting the ability to engage and interact with individuals pretty on demand. So now in the workforce it's translated into, again, to Joy and Fritz's point earlier, that's how we were raised. Because society created a tool for us as children that gave us quick and instant feedback, whether it was friend to friend or whatever it may be.
And now we're in a business place where all we know is instantly somebody is telling me an answer. Instantly somebody is telling me what's next. So to shift us into the workforce and then say, "Sorry, you got to wait a year." It's like we've never done that our whole lives. So it's this place of, we came into the workforce already having that on demand. And that's why I think forward to this Alpha Generation that we're talking about. It's even more prominent. Those children have smartphones at six. I don't think I got a smartphone till high school or college. So they have smartphones at six. So what are their expectations going to be 10, 20 years from now when they enter the workforce? It's going to look very different than what we're expecting today. Because we have to think back to, how was that generation raised? What did society expect of them? And how might that translate into the workplace?
David Sarnoff:
Well, I think I got a smartphone in my 30s, Tamara, if you include Blackberry. It's funny listening to you talk about as a kid having access to instant communication with others. I was thinking, "What did instant communication look like for me when I was a kid?" It was a rotary dial phone where you called your friend's house and hoped they were home. And you didn't know. If they weren't there, you had to try another time. Or if you got a busy signal, you waited and tried calling back again.
Tamara Fox:
To be fair, I did have the experience ... I mean, mine was AIM messenger and MySpace. But I did have the experience too before cell phones where you called the landline and it was busy or somebody was on the internet.
David Sarnoff:
Ooh, landline. Fritz, how about you?
Dr. Fritz Galette:
Such a rich and vast differences be between the generations. Again, based upon our time, our time in history, our time in technology. And you know what? These differences across generations may continue over the next number of generations. I think we need to be aware, be curious about the differences in those upbringings. Be curious about those differences in history. We have a generation now, I guess, our Alpha Generation who are children during a pandemic. Whereas if we go back to previous generations, they were children during the Vietnam crisis. They were children during the civil rights movements of the 1960s and the last 400 years. And World War I and World War II. Depending on who you talk to, there are different seminal events that, in our lives, affect us. The Depression era. We've got so many of those experiences woven into our generations and that will continue.
So being a part of this panel, but also even just attending it and hearing that, I'm hoping a takeaway for people is that awareness. That awareness that raises your curiosity that if you're in a workplace today in 2023 and you're trying to manage disputes or conflicts or biases or things like that, you take into context the histories of the people that you're working with. Back when I was a kid, when you wanted to learn about history of something, where did they send you to? The encyclopedia.
David Sarnoff:
The library.
Dr. Fritz Galette:
And the library. Remember that thing on the shelf? The encyclopedia. If you were lucky enough to be a family that had one, we had that. And nowadays, it's at our fingertips. And I think a thing about today, for all of us, the information is so easy to get, we sometimes don't utilize it. We're not curious enough to look at it. And the answers are out there.
David Sarnoff:
In the spirit of what Fritz just said, and hopefully we could give the audience some practical takeaways and strategies about how can organizations ensure that diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts are inclusive of all generations? Including colleagues from different generations, perspectives, lived experiences, familiarity with technology, comfort level. How do we make that environment an inclusive environment?
Joy Stephens:
I'm glad you brought that up. Because we spent a lot of time, the first half of this panel, talking about the desires and the personality profile, et cetera, of the younger generations. Let's not also forget that we do have the silent generation still, the boomers, and Gen X that are still very much a part of the workforce, usually because of tenure in those leadership positions. I know that being someone that has coached executives that has done transitional coaching, like someone moving from one position or one company to another, et cetera, there is this concern for people who are 50 and over of, "Will I even be able to move to a different company? Nobody wants to hire me because they think I'm about to retire. They think I don't know how to do things." There can sometimes be this level of profiling and disrespect from some of the younger generations. You know that phrase, "Okay, boomer." That is offensive.
But thinking about just the technology piece, because someone ... I think the meme is, "You don't know how to turn a Word document into a PDF." Just because somebody doesn't know how to do that doesn't mean they can't build a rocket from scratch. Looking at my engineering background there. But what skillsets, what understanding, what previous attempts have been made by people in some of the old generations that we can grow on or build upon instead of starting over or starting from scratch? Everyone has something that they bring to the table. And everyone shows up at work wanting to do their best and contribute to the best of their ability. And I think we need to remember that someone's relative tenure or age, et cetera, there's a level of sometimes respect that is expected. Respect looks different for different people. Sometimes it is respect my authority, respect my tenure, the things that I've accomplished.
I've made it to this level. Don't treat me like I don't know anything just because I don't know how to turn my phone on Do Not Disturb or what have you. And sometimes that relying reliance on technology can sometimes get us in trouble too. I want to acknowledge another comment from Alina in the Comment section. She says, "Don't forget, just because someone carries it all so well doesn't mean it's not heavy." And that's also absolutely true. The longer you live, the more you will have been through. And what are you carrying with you that, unfortunately, for some of the older generations, you've never been given an open opportunity to talk about or don't even know how because it's never been something that you were socialized to do.
But you're still working in the same environment. Even though your realities might be a little bit different, you're in the same environment as someone who has had that ability to share and reach out and be vulnerable, et cetera. You can teach an old dog new tricks. That has always been a lie. I think recognizing that is important to respecting all of the generations that are in our workforce.
David Sarnoff:
Thank you, Joy. And Tamara, please.
Tamara Fox:
I think the key thing that's kind of a theme this conversation is you asked for a strategy and best practices for the audience. It's emotional intelligence is the key. Regardless of your role, you are a leader. So it doesn't matter if you're entry level or you are the CEO of the organization, if you don't operate with emotional intelligence, you're never going to be inclusive. You're never going to think bigger. You're never going to think about everyone around you if you don't use emotional intelligence. And if you don't know what emotional intelligence is, of course, we can spend hours talking about that. I'm sure this group would love that.
But it's more of training managers, training leaders. What does emotional intelligence? What does it mean to be an emotionally intelligent leader? How does that show up when it comes to DE&I? How can you think and act differently if ... And emotional intelligence can be developed. Regardless of what generation you are, regardless of what position you are, if your emotional intelligence needs to be developed, needs to be coached, that's possible. That I think is going to be a big turning point when more businesses and firms bring in emotional intelligence training. Really truly train their managers, leaders and individual contributors what it means, how to apply it, how to develop it, I think we'll begin to start seeing a big change there.
David Sarnoff:
Thank you, Tamara. Especially in the legal profession and professional services where there still are these five generations that ... And for purposes of this conversation, I'll throw out a definition of emotional intelligence, of having the self-awareness to recognize how you show up, how you're perceived by others, the impact of your words and actions, and recognizing emotions as they're happening. And being able to identify them, possibly deescalate them. And at a higher level, recognizing emotions in others. Fritz, I'd like to bring you in about your reaction. And also if you have any practices for organizations to ensure creating an inclusive environment across generations.
Dr. Fritz Galette:
One of the practices ... And I love that we're talking about emotional intelligence. I'm holding my tongue because I really agree with you all on that. It just needs to be be ongoing training. I'll highlight that when I hear about emotional intelligence and workspaces, it reminds me of how little of that training we got throughout our education. We got a lot of science and math, we got a lot of other things, but we don't get much in the way of what that is. And coined in the 1990s and popularized emotional intelligence is being able to tap into what emotions you're feeling. Where they're coming from, what information they contain. And in this context of a work environment, it's utilization of those emotions and emotional awareness of yourself as well as the emotions that are happening in another person to really develop high trust, safe relationships, and working environments.
One of the things that I facilitate are dialogue groups or opportunities for people to get together and talk. Talking has a framework to it where, again, we have a lot of experience in discussion and we have a lot of experience in debate. But in dialogue we actually practice deeply listening to another person. So not only that we understand intellectually what they're saying and what they mean, but where that might be coming from on an emotional level. Everything we do in life, all humans and other animals have an emotional component to what we do, whether we like it or not.
So emotional intelligence for us when we do this work is helping people connect to that. So that sometimes in very short periods of time you can accomplish a lot relationally and work-wise with another person. If you just get them, "You get me," boom, "I'll start any mountain now with you because I feel cared and gotten." So I invite people to think about creating opportunities within their spaces for real dialogue. And if you don't know what dialogue is, I'm happy to come and show you.
David Sarnoff:
Thank you, Fritz. Again, encourage the audience to please share questions, comments. We'd love to engage and interact. Joy, you were going to weigh in?
Joy Stephens:
Yeah, I just wanted to add to what Fritz is saying. You know I'm a big fan of the platinum rule, which is treat others the way they want you to treat them, which requires you to listen to them, to get them, to get to know them. It has to be one-on-one dialogue. There's no other way to get to know to somebody without talking to them and understanding them. And listening and having them listen to you. So you build that relationship from the ground up. It's the only way to build it. When we talk about how can you lead inclusively, how can you handle situations that arise? It starts with getting to know the people around you. Regardless of level, regardless of status or hierarchy or whatever, get to know the people in your circle, in your environment, in your building. So that when something does happen, you know that person. You know potentially why they may have reacted that way.
You might know what's important to them. You might know that this is a hot-button topic for them or something they're passionate about. You won't know any of that if all you do is email them or if you only see their name next to their business ID number on a payroll slip or what have you. You've got to talk to people. And we mentioned earlier about people saying ... I've heard phrases like, "I'm not their parent. I'm not their therapist. I'm not their friend," et cetera. I'm not asking you to be. I'm asking you to see them as a human being and be another human being talking to them.
We only have a finite amount of energy and time during the day. I'm not telling you to make up new time. I'm telling you to reallocate the time and energy that you have now. Spending more time getting to know people, having those conversations eliminates the need for rework, rehiring, retraining, potentially dealing with whatever issues might come up that require HR or EEOC involvement. If we can get to understand people on the front end, it absolutely pays dividends. And that is regardless of generation, regardless of demographic. Doesn't matter who it is, you need to talk to them.
David Sarnoff:
And to your point, Joy, there are studies that are projecting in the next five to seven years, a tidal wave of retirement of baby boomers and older Gen X. And there's a rapidly closing window for that opportunity of knowledge share and experience share to pass on to future leaders and stakeholders in an organization. I think a lot of companies and firms and organizations are not reacting quickly enough to this impending event. And I think building relationships, building trust, all the EQ skills and active listening are vital to being able to set the stage to have the opportunity to transfer all that knowledge and experience. I don't see it happening on a structured large scale.
Tamara Fox:
To Joy's point as well too, it's not only when you get to know those people around you too, she said that, "You'll know what's going on in their life." But also when you need someone you know who you can turn to and for what. So it's this dual thing of regardless if they're your direct reports, your peer, your manager, or somebody you maybe interact with once in a blue moon, at least you know who to go to. Because it's inevitable that everybody's life has their ups and downs.
And community is key. Community's always been key in every generation. It's looked different in every generation. It's a lot more via phone now than it was years ago. But community has always been important. So it's still building that community within the workplace, finding out who those people are and what those relationships are. So when you need someone to turn to, you have someone, whether that's for, "I need help with this client," or, "I just need someone to talk to." It may just be about something like, "I had a crappy day. And I know you know what it's like to experience that because you've worked with this client too." But we're still human. And it's still that connection and you still have that community.
David Sarnoff:
And Fritz, if you could take this next question in the chat. "I fully appreciate the need to understand millennials and Gen Z. But isn't it also important for them to understand how boomers and Gen X were brought up and what is important to them? How they got where they are, et cetera. It seems very one-sided."
Dr. Fritz Galette:
That question sounds like the answer too, which is if we get everybody sitting down, it's not just a one-way traffic of sharing what, when, where and why of the younger generation. But the older generation getting a chance to really share their narrative, their experiences, and their stories, and having in that space. Those narratives have some equal footing. So that we can more better understand one another. For the most part, communication breaks down because we're not talking to each other. We're often not talking to each other because we don't know each other. We're afraid of each other.
I'm paraphrasing a Martin Luther King quote here. And ultimately when we have a habit of getting together and talking, whether it's a small talk of, "How was your day." At the beginning of the week, "How was your weekend?" To more intentional, mindful dialogue and interactions, we'll slowly get the pieces of the anecdotes that'll help us all understand each other. And find out that we're not as different as we may seem on the surface. But when we don't know each other, that camp on the other side of the fence looks different. So I love that comment. Thank you for that.
Joy Stephens:
I want to expand on that too. You just said, "We're not as different as we may seem on the surface." I absolutely agree. I think once you peel it all away, we all want to feel that we accomplished something, that somebody loves us, that we have some sense of purpose, that somebody sees us. All these things that we want, how we express that is very different from generation to generation if we are even able to acknowledge that we want that. There's another comment here that says, "You have to be willing to be transparent and open. Because relationships are not one-sided." I also believe that the learned behavior of how to be transparent is something that we need assistance with for the boomers and Gen X and the top end of the millennials as well of it's okay to not be okay, to steal the title of a Netflix show.
It's okay to not be okay. It's okay to say, "I'm not sure." There have been multiple generations before millennial where that's career killer to say you don't know something or you're not sure or you're having a bad day or, "I'm struggling at home." Matter of fact, Simon Sinek, when he talks about psychological safety is one of the things he says. "I'm having trouble at home and it's affecting my work," is something that could stop you from getting promoted in earlier times. So the people who enter the workforce in that time still struggle with letting that conditioning go. I think that's also some of the work that needs to happen. And everything I'm talking about is psychological evolution. And we're still struggling with saying, "I have a therapist." So there's a lot, there's so much to go into this.
Tamara Fox:
I think especially, Joy, I mean we work with so many law firms. And professional services in general ... I was a consultant for a year ... where you get told you have to have the answer, you have to know the answer. That applies to that generations, but there's industries too where that applies. So they have this dual prong of you have to always be perfect. You have to almost be like a shell of a person instead of, "I can be honest and vulnerable that I'm not having a good day." Or, "I need somebody else to go talk to this client, because this happened in my personal life."
So how can I think we use the strengths of all generations to help one another? There's five generations in the workforce. Let's not try to get anybody out. Let's not rush to ... There's going to be retirements. That doesn't matter because we're always going to have multi-generations in the workforce. So yes, a strength of millennials and Gen Z is being vulnerable and transparent about what is happening personally and professionally. And we've discussed as a collective that that's a need for organizations and businesses. So how can we use that strength to help all generations instead of view it as this generation, first-generation component.
David Sarnoff:
And just to bring it back to emotional intelligence. As I was listening to you, Tamara, I think of the Daniel Goleman quote that, "Emotional intelligence is the distinguishing component among a group of highly intelligent people as to who's most able to lead effectively." No matter which generation you're in, if you can demonstrate empathy and stress management and optimism, you're able to connect people and actively listen. Let them share their experience or challenges and address them. You can help create a much more effective, productive workplace. As our colleague David Roberts always says, sometimes you hear from older generation, "Why do I have to? Nobody did it for me." And you can say, "You're right. But do you want to be right or do you want to be effective?" And if you want to be effective, then it's a different conversation.
Dr. Fritz Galette:
I'm willing to put out there that us older folk, the parents who have raised these millennials and Alphas, wanted to do things better. A lot of us wanted to do things better. We had the trauma, we had the experiences of not being safe, and we wanted to do better. And so we did. Maybe some of us overcompensated. Raise my hand and say, I overcompensated. And my kids feel so safe that sometimes I'm like, "Ooh, I should have let them feel some reality." But it's so important to recognize that we got to here from there. Another piece I'd like to highlight is that ... I'm reminded by just what happens sometimes if we're on long enough and people start to comment, some of the comments that come in start to become so valuable to us doing this better going forward. Now, imagine we have a workspace environment where the comments are able to come in. And the connection and the collaboration with all the voices in the space, no matter what generation, are able to chime in. We get a better product.
Whenever I'm doing this stuff live and somebody says, "I disagree," I get so excited. Because what I know in that moment, it's about to get better. If I'm wrong, I'm about to get better. If I'm right, it's about to get better. If it's anything in between, we're about to collaborate. And that's what wakes me up in the morning to do this work is to have people show up who are willing to listen carefully to what we're doing. And to participate and then to take something away and maybe make the world a little bit better place.
David Sarnoff:
Great. Thanks so much for that, Fritz. Yeah. As we're coming up on the hour, I'll ask the panel if they could just share a key takeaway for them that you have had during this dialogue. Or anything you want to highlight for our audience. Tamara?
Tamara Fox:
I'd say if you don't already know about inquiring what is emotional intelligence, and if you have authority ... or maybe not authority ... the ability within your firm or organization to drive initiatives, discover how you can implement some initiatives and some training around emotional intelligence for everyone. Managers, leaders, and individual contributors. If not, do your own research. Each of us make an impact in a difference, whether it's on a small scale or large scale. So do that research. And find out for yourself what emotional intelligence is and how you can show up differently with your emotional intelligence. And apply it differently in every conversation.
David Sarnoff:
As Fritz said, in 1990s, Daniel Goleman popularized it with his book Emotional Intelligence. But there's another book called Primal Leadership that I highly recommend with respect to emotional intelligence. Joy, what key takeaways landed for you?
Joy Stephens:
I want to pull out something that you said earlier and expand on it around leaders wanting to be inclusive. And who are the leaders in your organization? It might not be the one that generates the most revenue. It's the one that has the best relationships and the one that knows how to talk to people. So when you look at who is on that fast track, that shortlist, et cetera, how are they in dealing with other people?
And this is my personal opinion, but I will stand by and I will die on this hill. If there is someone that is a huge revenue generator or is good on a technical front, but you know that they have issues with dealing with people, with being vulnerable, with emotional intelligence, hold off. Get them that improvement. Then we can talk about moving them to something with a higher level of visibility and responsibilities for other people's livelihoods and careers. If you have someone that is a middle of the road, always did a good job, maybe never at the top end of the scale. But everyone knows them, they know everything about everybody, they are always the one people go to get something done, that's your leader. That's what I want to say.
David Sarnoff:
Thank you, Joy. Fritz, tie it all together for us.
Dr. Fritz Galette:
Tying it all together. Well, take what everyone has just shared right now. And as you leave this meeting right now, take a big deep breath. And try to grab something that is very resonant to you and take it forth into your day. You have the opportunity to do something today, even if it is small. Just allow yourself to just internalize something that we've talked about, you've thought about something that got kicked off. And take it with you and we hope to see you for our next one.
David Sarnoff:
Thank you so much, Fritz. And thank you to our panel, Dr. Fritz Galette, Joy Stephens, Tamara Fox. Grateful for joining you today. Thank you to our audience. Please feel free to reach out to us, connect with us on LinkedIn, or email us. Go to LoebLeadership.com, and we look forward to seeing you next time. Thank you for all the emoji, applause, and comment. We appreciate it.